If you happen to’ve been affected by AI Overviews, visitors drops, or really feel unsure about search engine optimisation’s future, then this episode is for you.
Search Engine Journal’s Editor-in-Chief Katie Morton sits down with development advisor and writer of “Development Memo,” Kevin Indig, to unpack the outcomes of his newest AI Overviews examine.
On this 35-minute episode, they talk about the way it impacts search, search engine optimisation, and model advertising in 2025.
Editor’s notice: The next transcript has been edited frivolously for readability, brevity, and adherence to our editorial tips.
Desk of Contents
- 1. What AI Overviews Imply For Search, search engine optimisation & Model Belief
- 2. What The AI Overview Examine Actually Reveals
- 3. Why Branding Issues Extra Than Ever
- 4. The New Function Of search engine optimisation In A Altering Panorama
- 5. Reaching Individuals In all places Requires A Daring Shift To Different Platforms
What AI Overviews Imply For Search, search engine optimisation & Model Belief
Katie Morton: Hello, everyone. It’s I, Katie Morton. I’m the editor-in-chief of Search Engine Journal, and right this moment I’m sitting down with Kevin Indig, who’s a development advisor to fast-growing tech corporations and the writer of “Development Memo,” a implausible publication.
We syndicate it right here on Search Engine Journal, however join it instantly, too, as a result of he has content material unique to subscribers. It’s full of sensible insights each marketer must know.
Kevin, thanks for making the time right this moment. The examine was analyzed in March-April 2025 and printed in Might. We’ve had time to mirror, and right this moment we’ll unpack the important thing takeaways.
We’ll begin with the nuts and bolts of the examine’s background, so listeners perceive the context, after which transcend the info to discover how entrepreneurs and firms, particularly these pissed off by Google, AI Overviews, or visitors drops, can reply.
So, Kevin, are you able to summarize the examine and share the principle takeaways?
Kevin Indig: Thanks for having me on, Katie. It’s nice to be right here with you.
What The AI Overview Examine Actually Reveals
Kevin: The examine got here from a want to deeply perceive, from a qualitative perspective, how on a regular basis customers work together with AI Overviews.
In 2024, everybody was eyeing AI Overviews with curiosity, however visitors influence wasn’t important but. Then, at first of 2025, every part modified. It grew to become a “holy cow” second – this was actual and critical.
We requested 70 contributors within the U.S., throughout totally different age teams, to unravel eight duties that lined dominant person intents: Discovering a tax accountant, researching medical questions, procuring, and so forth.
We deliberately included queries that confirmed AI Overviews however didn’t inform contributors to work together with them – we wished unbiased habits.
So, in a nutshell, the three most poignant outcomes are:
1. Basic Natural Outcomes Nonetheless Carry Weight
To begin with – and that is no shock – clicks are actually uncommon when individuals see AI Overviews. That’s gotten by to everybody by now.
And but, on the similar time, basic natural outcomes nonetheless have nearly all of influence on individuals’s completion of person journeys.
Let me untangle that for a second: What we discovered is that folks get their ultimate reply – the ultimate piece of knowledge they have been got down to get – 80% of the time from basic natural outcomes. Not from AI Overviews, in order that was encouraging.
2. Excessive-High quality Clicks Occur In Excessive-Belief Moments
Clicks are happening, however individuals nonetheless click on. And every of these clicks has a lot, a lot increased high quality than, say, in 2024 or earlier than.
As a result of these clicks are to confirm whether or not the outcomes are correct, to get human enter from platforms like Reddit or YouTube, and to extend confidence in whether or not what the AI is saying is true.
And for us, meaning it’s crucial to be current in these high-trust, high-risk moments. I can unpack that slightly extra…
3. Viewers Age Shapes AI Engagement
The third consequence I discovered very attention-grabbing is that there actually is an age distinction right here. [Younger users] are way more receptive to AI solutions. They’re way more lively on Reddit and YouTube. Whereas individuals of a better age will usually simply skip the AI solutions as a result of they don’t belief them.
You wish to know who you’re speaking to, who your target market is. Ideally, what the age group is of your ICP or your target market, after which make search engine optimisation selections accordingly.
Why Branding Issues Extra Than Ever
Katie: Thanks for that. What I’d love to speak about subsequent is branding.
I really feel like large manufacturers are slightly safer with current developments. If you have already got recognition, you’re in a greater spot. However should you’re a tiny model with no recognition, you’re actually behind the eight ball.
For the uninitiated or the uninformed, [you might wonder], why is that essential? It’s about belief.
When somebody sees your model in an AI Overview, recognition boosts belief. In the event that they click on on an AI Overview or scroll to search out natural outcomes, they’re extra more likely to belief and click on a reputation they know. A robust model will increase your possibilities.
However even sturdy manufacturers can lose recognition. Mordy Oberstein and I discuss this loads – he’s doing branding work now. Popularity is every part.
Mordy makes use of the instance of Nike, which was as soon as ubiquitous, however has misplaced some relevance. Youthful generations aren’t as loyal or conscious of the swoosh anymore.
So, for large manufacturers, sustaining confidence and belief is crucial. For small or new manufacturers, or manufacturers that by no means had sturdy recognition, can they nonetheless achieve traction?
Kevin: You will get traction … however it’s actually difficult.
One problem is that a number of groups must work collectively: product, innovation, advertising, help, provide chain. search engine optimisation doesn’t management all these variables. It’s at all times been a self-discipline of suggestions, counting on others to behave.
So, you at all times have been counting on different groups, and that has 10x’d now with AI. As a result of, as you stated, model, model notion, and sentiment are so crucial to the way you seem in search outcomes or solutions.
And it goes again to so many alternative contact factors with a model, not simply the emblem that folks see or the promoting, but in addition the product that they use, retention, all that form of stuff.
SEOs want to point out different departments the place points lie, utilizing click-through charges, model search quantity, and engagement metrics as indicators. They need to talk the story and rally different groups.
However that always runs into price considerations. Asking for a brand new name middle to enhance help has large finances implications, and quantifying ROI is hard.
So, SEOs should push past the Google channel and affect firm technique. It’s extremely tough to affect.
Katie: Completely. And talking of search engine optimisation being declared “useless,” I’ve heard that each few years in my 20 years within the business, however that is the primary time I’ve felt a reputable risk.
search engine optimisation won’t ever really die. It’s discovery, and discovery is at all times wanted, however it’s positively altering. It was once probably the most cost-effective advertising channel. Now, ROI is much less sure, and budgets are contracting.
However there’s a silver lining. Lots of low-quality, normal content material meant simply to drive mass web page views is getting weeded out.
For instance, we used to rank for “What’s E-E-A-T?” and get tons of unqualified visitors. With AI Overviews answering these normal queries now, visitors is down, however the remaining visitors is much extra certified. That’s higher for conversions.
It’s onerous for publishers who relied on brute-force clicks. However for us, shifting away from programmatic and towards advertisers aligned with our viewers, like SaaS, has labored. The business is altering massively.
So, what do you suppose is subsequent for search engine optimisation and advertising?
The New Function Of search engine optimisation In A Altering Panorama
Kevin: You hit it on the top. search engine optimisation is contracting; budgets are down, management confidence is down, and when individuals depart, their roles usually aren’t changed. search engine optimisation has died and reinvented itself many occasions.
I see that we’re utilizing loads of search engine optimisation additionally for AI visibility optimization. I do count on that to vary, however nevertheless you flip it, we’re in a transition interval. And the issue with transition durations is that they’re onerous to navigate. You lose orientation, and it’s painful.
As soon as you agree at a brand new baseline, you simply run round slightly headless, and also you attempt to discover your means. After which slowly, issues form of begin to settle again in.
And so I’m very assured that no matter we’re going to name this, we’re going to settle into a brand new baseline. It would take some time. This isn’t going to cease within the subsequent six months – in all probability not twelve months. But it surely’s onerous to foretell when.
Based mostly on how rapidly fashions enhance and the way rapidly people adapt to them, that can resolve the tempo of this transition.
Nevertheless, there are additionally many alternatives in transitions. You’ll be able to reinvent your self. And that’s the place, as SEOs, we’d lose the search engine optimisation finances, however possibly we achieve some model finances, which has been a lot, a lot greater prior to now.
You see corporations spending thousands and thousands of {dollars} for multi-year contracts for a tiny emblem that sits someplace on a System 1 automotive. These items occur on a regular basis.
There’s an enormous alternative for search engine optimisation to detach from that undesirable profiling as a efficiency channel – detach ourselves from being a efficiency channel, and turn into way more of a model channel, affect channel, presence channel – no matter you wish to name it.
New metrics. New levers. Deeply rooted in search engine optimisation. And efficient and highly effective, however form of in a brand new design, proper? Like search engine optimisation 2.0. No matter you wish to name it.
And I do agree with you. I additionally see individuals who’ve been within the sport for a very long time stepping out. Completely get that. I see younger individuals dropping a little bit of confidence.
However I may also say that I would really like (however wouldn’t admit) that there’s slightly a part of me that’s form of excited for all this variation.
As a result of it’s a possibility to form of reshuffle the playing cards, discover out new stuff, possibly discover some secrets and techniques, and form of reverse engineer what’s happening.
If you take a look at the final simply 10 days the place a number of individuals and firms discovered new methods to reverse engineer what queries Gemini makes use of and ChatGPT makes use of, I’m like, man, it’s superior to see how adamant the business works on growing the brand new playbook, dissecting how these mechanics work and LLMs work, and discovering new methods.
So, I’ve excessive confidence, and I even have loads of empathy for all of the ache and the form of issues that this business goes by. However once more, I see us popping out the opposite facet in some unspecified time in the future in like a brand new design – and with loads of influence.
Katie Morton: I find it irresistible. I agree with the empathy as properly. As a result of everybody in advertising, it appears, has misplaced their thoughts slightly bit over the previous 12 months or two with these shifts in visitors.
However that Wild Wild West surroundings can be actually thrilling as a result of there are going to be all of those developments.
And if individuals are calm and so they persevere and so they do the work to determine this stuff out, both for themselves or to observe what these researchers are discovering, individuals will probably be okay, proper?
Kevin: We at all times are. Sorry to chop you off there, however there’s a extremely essential level to make right here that I didn’t make – and that’s: It’s not simply search that’s altering.
search engine optimisation is on the forefront of AI. On the absolute forefront. As a result of it’s about phrases, and it’s about search, and search is form of the most important interface between AI and people proper now.
So it’s not simply search that’s altering. Advertising is totally altering. And like, all of our lives are fully altering.
Positive, this may take years to trickle by, possibly not even to the diploma we’ve considered it, however it’s fairly clear that AI is not less than as revolutionary because the web. Possibly even probably the most revolutionary invention that humanity has made to this point.
So let’s not neglect: Every thing is altering. It’s not simply us SEOs. It’s all of the channels. It’s advertising as an entire.
Modes and levers are disappearing, and new ones are developing. We’re feeling it deeply in search engine optimisation, as being form of the entrance line of AI. However make no mistake, this may trickle by to all of the paid channels, product, every part.
All people is in a state of shock proper now, attempting to determine what the brand new branches are to carry on to after which construct on high of. Advertising as we all know it’s over. LLMs are reworking how they attain us.
Katie: This impacts each channel. At SEJ, we’ve collapsed editorial and advertising into one built-in workforce. It was once search engine optimisation and editorial right here, advertising over there, and nobody actually talked. That doesn’t work anymore.
Now, every part is extra cohesive and targeted on the ICP and conversion. It’s higher for patrons and for groups.
Kevin: 100%. I speak to all my purchasers about this. search engine optimisation and paid search ought to’ve at all times been linked, however they have been siloed, similar with product, e-mail, social, and so forth.
I imply, look: Realistically and ideally, search engine optimisation and paid (or paid search) have at all times been linked on the hip. However I’ll inform you, not less than throughout nearly all the businesses that I’ve labored with, they have been siloed.
The identical exists with all these different groups, like product advertising or social media, conversion, and e-mail – all that form of stuff.
Now’s the time to tear off the band-aid. There might be small groups of possibly an search engine optimisation, an editor, an e-mail individual, a social individual, and possibly a really technical one who can rapidly prototype new apps, applications, or instruments.
The most important problem now’s inner purple tape. AI is a pace catalyst, however corporations’ previous workflows gradual them down. Large organizations are caught.
I’m urging purchasers to kind these multi-disciplinary items below one supervisor, one roof, one mission.
Reaching Individuals In all places Requires A Daring Shift To Different Platforms
Katie: Superior. One final level: different platforms. For too lengthy, individuals relied too closely on Google. Diversifying visitors sources – adverts, social, newsletters – is now important. Holistic advertising is the long run. What are you seeing [that is] working proper now?
Typically talking, the place do individuals stay as of late? The place are people hanging out, and the place do we discover them? What are the success metrics that you just’re seeing?
Kevin: The quick reply is: In all places.
Katie: Good luck, everybody. Okay, good night time. That’s the present!
Kevin: No, however the actuality is, in all places. There’s this attention-grabbing paradox. I must coin this time period someway, however this attention-grabbing paradox that principally all of the social networks are rising. And new ones are popping up, proper? TikTok – I imply, it’s not that new anymore, however it’s nonetheless rising. Reddit is turning into way more of a family identify now.
And so that you ask your self, what offers? Positive, linear TV’s down, okay. However how is that this potential? And the fact is: Individuals are on-line on a regular basis – talking for a buddy – and so they use loads of platforms on the similar time.
So, the perfect groups, or the businesses which can be making a big effect, they’ve this encompass sound impact that they’re creating, the place they’re current in loads of locations. They interact authentically, say, on Reddit.
When good corporations interact on Reddit, it doesn’t really feel like advertising. It’s not advertising, actually. It’s way more like attempting to be useful, extra like buyer help or success.
That’s why these individuals are usually very well-suited to work together on Reddit. They really add worth. They’re really a part of the dialog.
Manufacturers are repurposing their content material in a really considerate and high-fidelity means, the place possibly they create a weblog article, flip it right into a video, flip it into clips, which then flip into questions they reply on Reddit. There’s this sort of in all places technique. AI actually helps with that.
And I may also say it’s usually not corporations which can be getting caught on the quantification-of-impact query. The truth is that steering a corporation or an organization towards that multi-channel impact – or that encompass sound impact – takes a swing.
It takes a frontrunner to say, “Okay, we’re going to spend some cash and take six months, and we’re going to put money into Reddit and YouTube, and we’re going to attend for the outcomes to come back in. We’re not going to sit down there each day refreshing the dashboard asking, ‘What number of gross sales have we generated but?’”
It takes a little bit of a swing. And so it’s defining for this period, for this transition interval, the place it’s a lot tougher to undertaking and forecast the place you’re going to land with a few of these issues.
It takes judgment and style and a sure diploma of risk-taking to put money into these channels and capabilities, and being snug, or not less than okay, with ready for among the outcomes to come back in and with the ability to measure them later.
I’m not saying it is best to wait a 12 months or two. However give it two quarters, possibly three quarters, and experiment with a few of these channels.
So, that’s the place individuals are – individuals are in all places. It’s not sufficient to simply have one shot at one platform. You might want to be form of in all places.
And repurposing can assist. Utilizing AI with a few of these issues helps. However on the finish of the day, it is advisable to take a swing.
Katie: Very sensible, Kevin. A kind of issues that I discovered extremely annoying is that you could run these experiments, and also you’re going to attend on your outcomes, after which earlier than your experiment is even finished, every part’s modified once more.
Kevin: Precisely. Predictable strategies are gone. You’re taking swings, and a few received’t join as a result of circumstances change. The most effective leaders, the perfect groups – loads of occasions, they take loads of swings.
As a result of a few of these swings will hit full drive, and it’s form of a talent to construct.
Katie: Yeah, I couldn’t agree extra. We’ve carried out month-to-month experiments at SEJ. Each division runs one. It might be format, content material kind … fixed iteration. I inform the workforce: delicate knees. Be able to shift. There’s no “set it and neglect it” anymore.
Kevin: Sure, sure. On level. Enable individuals to fail. One other good talent is with the ability to take significant dangers. I’m not saying wager the farm, however as a frontrunner, if you wish to encourage your individuals to take dangers, allow them to.
Once more, that doesn’t imply to blindly shoot in all instructions. You wish to have some thought behind that, some judgment. You wish to be crucial. However there must be some extent at which you let go.
Katie: That may be a actually good level. We tie experiments to north-star metrics. For us, one is publication subscriptions, so most of our experiments help that. We’ve seen nice success, not at all times in uncooked visitors, however in conversions and income.
Kevin: Wonderful. Congratulations on that.
Katie: Thanks. All proper, Kevin, any parting remarks earlier than we head out?
Kevin: I’m listening to loads of very involved SEOs. Involved about “How do I inform this story?” or “How do I handle my boss or management on this time the place visitors is down?”
I wish to ship out some braveness. This is without doubt one of the largest shifts I’ve lived by in my life. I’d wager it’s in all probability the identical for many, if not all, of the viewers.
So, that is possibly the time to make some adjustments and have some grace about discovering a brand new playbook.
I’m seeing loads of SEOs very scared about this. I get the preliminary worry. However once more, that is such a considerable, basic change. It’s okay for issues to look totally different. It’s okay for you to not have the reply proper now. Be trustworthy with management. Push again if wanted.
Katie: Concentrate on new metrics, not simply UVs or PVs, however ones that connect with enterprise targets. That’s the place the story of success will probably be informed.
Kevin: Precisely.
Katie: Thanks once more, Kevin. The place can individuals discover you?
Kevin: growthmemo.com, or simply seek for “Development Memo.” That’s my fundamental hub.
Katie: Superior. We’re at searchenginejournal.com. See you subsequent time!
Kevin: Thanks for having me.
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Featured Picture: Paulo Bobita/Search Engine Journal
